The SBAU Forum

I recorded this episode just on Sunday, Nov. 29, at 3pm when the show was repeated.  I was having problems trying to record the show while we were on because, I think, when the website for KZSB ( http://morenews.newspress.com/kzsb/radio.html ) is started the night before and continuously running to be captured by the Audacity sound program the next day, the website must repeat the show schedule from the day before our show.

Anyway, attached file contains the radio program that I have scrubbed out the commercials and preceding news, so it is only 46 minutes of our shooting the breeze.  Here are some of the topics:  Chuck brought up the topic of comets and Comet Catalina 2013, US10? (BTW, Catalina seems to be the same at Catherine for English).  We reviewed the SBAU last general meeting with Prof. Ruth Murray-Clay on exoplanets and planet formation.  Baron seemed concerned about mankind up against the size of the universe and the time it would take to other civilizations out there.  We talked about the SBAU number of members and Chuck gave Baron a bit of the history.  Caller Richard Dupree said he heard a bit on Dark matter from the NPR program "Wait, Wait, don't tell me" show guest, a Harvard Physic Prof:  http://www.npr.org/2015/11/21/456778588/not-my-job-physics-professor-lisa-randall-gets-quizzed-on-phys-ed .

Then we discussed the upcoming December SBAU meeting, astrophotography as masochism, Richard Dupree added that Dark Matter was called Transparent Matter on the NPR show, but does it anti-matter?  Chuck pointed out that the Milky Way is a barred spiral like the LA traffic jams.   Playing the music from the movie, Chariots of Fire, had TomT mentioning Auriga the constellation, and Baron wanted to know if we could detect any of the stars moving during his lifetime, which Chuck explained Yes, there is some Proper Motion detectable for some close stars.  SBAU club telescope outreaches listed and that other astronomy clubs are out there.  Enjoy!

I am starting this topic to help SBAU members to obtain the best equipment at the lowest price.

To start, I am noticing that when one retail company has a sale on telescopes and associated equipment, the other major retailers have the same sale.  This would include Astronomics, OPT, and Telescopes.com, I think, at least.

Best deals?  Getting the SBAU member discount on club sales!  If you have been a member in good standing for one year, a 5-15% discount (usually determined by our Sales Coordinators, PaulW and ArtH) off the street value (what it will be advertised for on Ebay or Cloudynights) will be set.  Notice when items are posted for sale in this forum, and you are a member of the forum, you should receive an email of new classified sales messages.

What do you think are the best shopping venues?  What deals have you been able to get?
Scope City going out of business?  Craigslist searches?

Once again, I attach the conversation we had with the Baron Ron Herron on KZSB 1290AM 9am on Monday, October 26, 2015, with commercials and news eliminated.
Starts w/ a 90sec EarthSky on Whale communication, 2:00 Chuck complains about a missed asteroid occultation; 6:00 Westmont outreach; 9:00 SBAU Campout; 12: Ophiuchus; 13: Milky Way; 15: SBAU History; 16: Westmont; 17: 2015 TP145 asteroid, magnetic north, Richard Dupree and his custom compass; 20: Ophiuchus (see mythology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiuchus); 25: geosynchronous satellites; 26: Saturn's moon & rings; 28: TB145 asteroid; 30:45 B612 Venus area asteroid detector; 33:30 Brass/Bronze...error, Brass is Cu+Zn, Bronze is Cu+Sn (tin); 36:30 Comet impacts; 39:30 Galaxy zoo; 40:30 Gravitational lensing happy face; 41: Galaxies vs. star blockage; 45: Howls & Owls Oct29 Thurs; 45:30 Halloween is a "cross quarter day"; 47:30 sound from meteors; 49: Quantum entanglement; 50: Halloween telescopes at Chuck's place.
Listen in to get the straight answers from Chuck!
Put this on your calendar, KZSB, 1290AM every 2nd Monday from today, Octobb 26, 2015.
http://morenews.newspress.com/kzsb/radio.html

> bcc: president @ sbau.org   
> Subject:    Questions for your "Astronomy FAQ" page.
> Date:    Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:00:54 -0700
> From:    Mark Drysdale <drysdale.mark.r@gmail.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Questions for your "Astronomy FAQ" page.
Date: 2015-10-11 23:00
From: outreach@sbau.org
To: Mark Drysdale <drysdale.mark.r@gmail.com>

Mark -

Greetings! Here's my shot at answering your questions.

"> 1. Supposedly in 4 billion years (which is 1 billion years before our sun dies, so maybe somebody will be around to worry about this) the Milky Way Galaxy collides with the Andromeda Galaxy and does a 'damped oscillation' dance before reaching some new galactic stasis. What is the probability (__%) that one or more of Andromeda's solar systems will 'slice through' our solar system? i.e., come close enough to do some serious wrenching of our planets from their normal orbits (if not outright planetary collisions)."

1. The exact time frame for the Andromeda/Milky Way collision is still not
settled, probably because of a lack of knowledge of the dynamics of all the
galaxies in the Local Group, but 4 billion years seems to be the consensus.

As for the Sun, if our models of stellar evolution are correct, in about
800 million years it'll have grown hot enough to boil off our oceans and
atmosphere. In roughly 5 billion years the concentration of hydrogen in the
core will have fallen to the point where it will enter the Red Giant phase,
and swell out to reach maybe Venus. Even though the surface will be cooler,
the proximity will result in a much hotter Earth.

In the galaxy collision, the probability that individual stars will have
close interactions is very small, but of course a bit larger toward the
cores. For the most part, it's like two diffuse shotgun blasts passing
through each other. The large clouds of gas and dust in spiral galaxies,
however, do have a much larger collisional cross-section, and the result
will be bursts of new star formation. The sky will look really cool.

> "2. They say that the universe started with a Big Bang. I've always assumed that this theory comes from (a) measuring the velocity* of a large number of Galaxies, and then (b) doing a linear** regression of their flight paths, and discovering that they all intersected at the ~same 3-dimensional point in space at the ~same time in the past. Is the "proof" of the Big Bang theory really that simple? Or are there more complex measurements/characteristics/parameters that perform more of the heavy lifting to support it?"
> * A vector = speed + XYZ direction wrt some arbitrary reference point
> ** Ok, maybe linear regression gets supplanted by polynomial regression under some circumstances (i.e., when the Galaxies -- or the precursors of Galaxies -- were close enough for interaction effects to be meaningful)>
2. There are multiple lines of evidence which converge onto our modern
model for the origin of the Universe in a Big Bang, approximately 13.8
billion years ago. The current best fit is called the Big Bang with initial
rapid inflation and collisionless dark matter.

In the early 1900's, Vesto Slipher and Hubble noticed a correlation between
the redshifts in the spectral lines of galaxies and their distance from us.
Galaxies twice as far away seemed to be receding twice as fast. This is a
characteristic of a uniformly expanding space, and the same relationship would
be observed from any other galaxy in space.

Humans are used to thinking in three dimensions, so this is a hard concept to
grasp, but there is no center to this expansion. The Big Bang created both space
and time, and is not expanding into anything. Since it happened about 13.8
billion years ago, your observable universe has a radius of about 13.8 billion
light years (in what's called lookback time, ignoring the expansion that's been
ongoing for those 13.8 billion years, making the actual bit of Universe occupied
by what you can see actually much larger). But I'm also the center of my own
observable Universe, and if I'm 100 miles "west" of you, I can see 100 miles
farther in the "west" direction than you can at any given instant, and you can
see 100 miles farther "east" than I can (directions are arbitrary).

Since the 1840s, we've known that the Universe is either finite in time, or
finite in extent (or both), because of something called Olber's Paradox.
Simply stated, if the Universe were infinite in space and time, and stars are
randomly distributed, and light does not get weaker over time, then in any
direction you looked, you would see the surface of a star, and the entire night
sky would be blindingly bright.

Also, if the Universe started out infinitely small, then all parts of it would
have been in causal connection, and it would be in thermal equilibrium, with none
of the lumpiness we see in the form of stars and galaxies. Something called rapid
inflation, where space itself expanded faster than the speed of light, happened in
the first 10**-36 seconds after the Big Bang to let this happen. This doesn't
contradict Relativity, because no physical object was traveling through space faster
than the speed of light.

We see the results of this initial rapid expansion today in the minute anisotropies
in the Cosmic Background Radiation, which is essentially the surface of the fireball
of the Big Bang now redshifted by the expansion of the Universe into microwave
frequencies. Look 13.8 billion light years in any direction, and that's all you'll see.

The existence of the CBR (or CMB, for Cosmic Microwave Background), combined with
running the observed expansion backwards (accounting for the 1/r**2 of gravity, so
nonlinear) were two of the real clinchers for the reality of the Big Bang. Another
is that, in combination with the Standard Model of physics, it explains the abundances
we see for the various elements.

For a while, when things were closer together in a smaller Universe, gravity opposed
the expansion of space, but now the gravitational force has been overcome by the
inflationary properties of empty space, and the rate of expansion is accelerating.
This is the recently-discovered thing called Dark Energy. We don't know a lot about
its exact properties yet, but it seems to be that empty space has a pressure associated
with each bit of volume, causing it to expand. Perhaps this is related to the quantum
foam of virtual particles constantly popping in and out of existence throughout space.
This pressure causes that volume of space to expand, but after the expansion, the
pressure in each bit of volume remains the same, rather than decreasing as we're used
to seeing with gas pressure, for example.

We think that the Universe beyond what we can see is essentially infinite, because of
that initial rapid inflation, but our observations are limited by the speed of light.

Cosmology is pretty tough stuff to grasp at first. Here's a great website to peruse:
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/

">> Like you, I reside in Southern California and sometimes look up (UNAIDED) into the night sky . . . .>
3a. . . . . Given that they say that our solar system is on the rim of our Milky Way Galaxy, during which months of the year am I looking into the core (the fat, meaty part in the center) of our Milky Way Galaxy, and during which months am I looking at the remainder of the 'rim' (what's left in between us and the closest*** entry into inter-galactic space)?"
> *** In the X-Y plane, not the Z dimension
>
3a. We're not quite on the rim of our galaxy, but definitely in suburbia. We think the
Milky Way is about 100,000 light years across, and we're about 30,000 light years out
from the center. The center of the galaxy is near the tip of the arrow in Sagittarius,
so in summertime in the northern hemisphere, it's to our south, most prominently seen
at reasonable hours of the night during August. The edge is to the northeast, toward
Cassiopeia. So, our wintertime Milky Way is looking toward the edge, and our summertime
Milky Way is looking more toward the center. In the southern hemisphere, the center of
the galaxy goes overhead, so they have spectacular winter (for them) skies.

"> 3b. . . . . Given the light pollution that nighttime Southern California enjoys, is it possible that any of the points of light that we might see are another Galaxy? Or are we always looking (again: unaided; no binoculars or telescopes) at local objects (stars within our own Milky Way Galaxy or planets within our own solar system)?"
>
3b. Essentially every star you see in the nighttime sky is part of our galaxy. There
can be supernovae in nearby galaxies (like SN1987a in the Large Magellanic Cloud) that
may temporarily reach eyeball visibility, but that's a transient thing. On a dark,
clear night away from light pollution, you can see the Andromeda Galaxy as a fuzzy patch,
making it the farthest thing you can generally see with the unaided eye, 2.5 million
light years away. From the southern hemisphere, you can see the Large and Small
Magellanic Clouds, which are small companion galaxies orbiting the Milky Way, but only on
the order of 180,000 light years away.


Hasta nebula - Chuck
--
Chuck McPartlin
www.sbau.org
--

The new telescope that was donated from Wayne Rosing was very impressive.  A 20" Ritchey-Chrétien telescope made by RC Optical, with an AstroPhysics 155mm (6") F7 finder scope on a Planewave Ascension 200HR mount!  Turns out that he will donate a new 100mm solar scope as well, that wipes out our donation of the 60mm Lunt we let Javier buy.  Javier says we can have it back...maybe we can sell it and buy something else that the observatory needs that Wayne Rosing is not supplying?  He is even considering redoing the dome electrical motor control and refinishing the inside of the observatory.   Perhaps even the way the dome windows operate.  Mr. Rosing was disappointed that he had to move the scope out of his observatory on his Mountain Drive home, but then he has a newer, better one coming!

The telescope height on its mount will limit its views a bit...maybe only those objects above 30 degrees will be visible, but that is probably is a reasonable view range avoiding the thicker sky of the horizon and trees / buildings around the Museum of Natural History.

Lots of city, county, state bigwigs at the event today.  From City College, City Council, County, and California, the politicians were able to praise the renovated Palmer Observatory.  I was the 4th speaker out of about 8, trying to give a SBAU point of view.  There were not enough seats at the circle outside the observatory, which made it irritating for a lot of the crowd standing in the sun (smart folks found shade next to buildings and bushes) for the 40 minutes or so.  A ribbon cutting given to Fred Marshak, retired SBCC astronomy professor and once commander of the 1990's astronomy club, followed.  A number in the audience were important folks of the SBMNH Board, I think.  Strawberries and mini muffins were the refreshments.  Javier got a view takers for the solar scopes he set up after the presentations.

After all that, here is approximately what I said, except for my mumbling or skipping or making up words:

October 5, 2015 Museum of Natural History Observatory Celebration
Tom Totton, Santa Barbara Astronomical Unit, President

"Thank you for the chance to say a few words for our club about this project. 

First of all, we of the SBAU must say that this telescope and renovated Palmer observatory are a Great Gift to the public of Santa Barbara.  Many thanks to Wayne Rosing for the telescope, City College for the dome, Museum members, and the Museum Board for making this possible.  Wow!  And thanks to the Museum administration for handling the engineering, permitting, and construction to get us to this point.

We believe the community, along with the members of the SBAU, will treasure the enhanced Star Parties associated with the new telescope and observatory.  How great it is that we have a professional facility within walking distance of downtown Santa Barbara. 

With this new larger eyeball on the nighttime Universe, we will see beautiful views of planets, red supergiant stars ready to supernova, and wild nebulas of newly born stars in our Milky Way galaxy.  Plus a camera on the telescope will allow for longer light collection than our own eyes to provide seeing the colors of the fainter objects.  Fabulous faraway globular clusters, and glorious galaxies located millions of light years away will leave many astounded.  Just think, at the current satellite speeds we have sent off from earth, a few now past Pluto, it will take 15,000 years to travel just one light year.  And the closest stars to us are over four light years away.

But not to forget our closest star, the Sun, we also have a solar telescope for the observatory.  This bright ball of plasma 8 light minutes away, one Astronomical Unit, will help make the observatory a regular daytime part of the Museum.  As a school planetarium presenter, I understand we will be bringing the kids over to the observatory for a look before heading into the planetarium.  Our members donated the funds for the solar scope, and a flat screen tv to allow group viewing.

Observation and wonder is the first step of the scientific method and we will have lots to observe in the sky.  We will need to ask the observers if they know why things look the way they do.  If they make a prediction, we will encourage them to thoroughly test their hypothesis…and a future scientist is born.  Hopefully when students see this impressive equipment and learn how it is used, we will hear of future astrophysicists that have passed through the Museum of Natural History.  And one of those scientists may help life on our planet to survive the trip through the Universe.

Let me close by saying the Santa Barbara Astronomical Unit members are quite proud to be associated with the Museum of Natural History, the renovated Palmer Observatory, and the Rosing telescope. We will back up the Museum’s space science programs run by the Astronomy Manager, Javier Rivera, who we thank for involving the club in the project.  This facility and equipment reminds me of Arthur C. Clarke’s 2001, where a special monolith can be touched and life will be taken to the next stage of evolution.  I hope to be hearing many “oos” and “aahs” and “what’s that’s” in the near future!"
https://flic.kr/p/yWyL6W

Let us see if this mp3 file can be attached for the 1st 10min of the September 18, 2015 Garden Gossip show where Chuck and Luke Swetland attempt to explain the new telescope and remodeled observatory being installed at the Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History.  Yes the attachment is downloaded to your computer if you click on it, and once you click on the file on your computer, it should be played by your music player software.  The overall complete show is 60MB and the attachment limit is 10MB, so that is why this is only the first portion of the show.  Let me know if you want me to add the other blocks after I edit out most of the commercial time.

Hmm, maybe I can upload the whole show to the FTP area of our Forum and put the link here:
ftp://ftp.sbau.org/../../SBAU%20SBMNH%20audio%20files/150918%20KZSB%20Garden%20Gossip%20re%20Obs%20w%20Luke%20Chuck%20PhilW%20TT%20call%20in.mp3
OK, let us see if that works...yes it does, if you put in the user name of meetings@sbau.org and the password of ngc1976  .  The mp3 file should start playing in your browser.  The first 6 minutes is news, so skip ahead.  Hmm, it is a streaming file, so probably cannot skip ahead...you will have to be patient thru the news and commercial breaks.  [Maybe the file will be a download in your browser, if so, download, probably after putting in the username and password above.  Then play from your computer folder.]

On 8/12/2015 1:06 PM, Jerry wrote:
> Hi Tom
>
> Here's a thought on FOV I wrote for Tim.  you might be interested too.
>
> Field of view
>
> Put an eyepiece in your telescope and point at a star.  Turn the drive off and let the star drift.  Note the line the star drifts in.  That drift line defines the motion of the Earth in Right Ascension or RA. Now move the scope so the star moves back long the RA line to the very edge of the field of view. If you moved it even a tiny bit more the star would disappear out of the field of view. Do this and get your stop watch ready.  Most cell phones have a stop watch App.
>
> Now leave the scope alone and as soon as the star enters at the side of the field of view, start the watch. Let the star drift all the way across the field of view and stop the watch when it disappears.  Record the time the watch shows it took the star to drift from one side of the field of view to the other.
>
> The Earth rotates once per 24 hours or turns through 360 degrees in 24 hours. Hence it rotates one degree in 24/360 hours. Or one degree in 0.0667 hours.  Times 60 that's one degree in 4 minutes. So to get the field of view in degrees of your eyepiece and telescope combination divide your measured time in minutes by 4.
>
> By example if it took 1.75 minutes (1 minute and 45 seconds) to cross the field of view, you have a 0.4375 degree field of view or just under half a degree. Since the full moon subtends a half degree this field of view will not quite show the whole disk of the moon in a single view.
>
> This is the actual or absolute field of view, not the apparent field of view.
>
> The apparent field of view is a property of the eyepiece alone, without the telescope attached.  If you look in the eyepiece by itself you will not see an image, just a large disk of light.  The angle that disk appears to subtend is the apparent field of view.  Apparent field of view is given by multiplying the true field of view by the magnification of the eyepiece when it is in a telescope with a true field of view. It is also a design feature of the eypiece usually quoted by the eyepiece maker.
>
> Conversely the true field of view of an eyepiece plus telescope combination is given by dividing the apparent field of view by the magnification.

Update:  Campout is Nov. 6-8 at Mohawk group camp, Lake Cachuma.  Please notify Refreshment Coordinators, Martin and Janet, if you will be there for Saturday evening potluck dinner.

Chuck & all,
This would be a good topic to put into the SBAU Forum to avoid crossing emails.  I hope everyone is registered there?  Nov 6-8 would be nice for the dark sky, except for messing with the 1st Friday general meeting consistency.  Oh, well, cannot win on all fronts, so I would be good for moving the General Meeting date to Friday, Nov 13, if that works for Jerry.  Should be cooler weather in November; maybe the no-see-ums biting bugs will be hibernating by then.
TomT

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On 6/22/2015 3:23 PM, Jerry A Wilson wrote:
> Hi Chuck
>
> I am planning on attending the AIC and close to the full moon does not appeal to me.  The better date is November 6-8.
>
> Jerry
>
> On 6/22/2015 2:54 PM, Chuck McPartlin wrote:
>> AU Folks -
>>
>> Pat and I will be out of town for the next planning meeting, so I wanted
>> to get the date selection for the Cachuma campout on the table for everyone
>> to consider. We don't have to make a decision real soon, but there are
>> definite tradeoffs involved.
>>
>> I'm assuming that dates already set for things like Astrovaganza, second Saturday,
>> Avocado Festival, and the lunar eclipse are excluded.
>>
>> The remaining candidate weekends are:
>>
>> October 16/17/18 - 4 to 5 day old Moon, would mean skipping a Westmont
>> (for some folks), and conflicts with the AIC conference in San Jose.
>>
>> October 23/24/25 - Bright Moon, but no event conflicts.
>>
>> October 30/31/01 - Halloween and time change weekend, 3 and 4 days after Full Moon
>>
>> November 06/07/08 - Later than usual, conflict with monthly meeting, dark of Moon.
>>
>> Hasta nebula - Chuck
>> --
>> Chuck McPartlin
>> macpuzl@west.net
>> http://www.sbau.org/
>> --
>>
>>
>

Henk, I think you are right!  TomT

On 2/13/2015 10:20 AM, Henk Aling wrote:
> The location has an effect on whether you open yourself up to charlatans who sell their prize online the next day.  So, if it is held at the Camino Real plaza where anybody can enter and spend the time waiting eating pizza at Costco, sure give them crappy scopes and spend as little as possible.  If it is held at a quality place such as the SBMNH where people have to make an effort to go to so the likelihood of quality people and a quality event is higher then have a quality prize like the Z8.  I could not find where the event is held but I would  hope it is at the SBMNH.
>  Henk

Chuck, on top-posting,
I am used to keeping past posts below, with a little trimming of those headers & big signature lines and other wasted space.  For instance I have no idea of where the comment about "binos" or "money" came from without searching back thru closed emails, so keeping the previous emails complete as possible below helps me understand where your comments are aiming.  Text emails are not that big of a space waster, nowadays, with our enormous hard drives.  However, I do not think I can change you and you will not change my style either.  Carry on.

However, maybe this type of topic would be better for the Forum, where there is little repetition and comments just proceed down the page?  Next time we need to start there with any discussion.  SBAU members need to sign up now!  Look to the bottom of the forum for latest topic, and sign in to
TomT

On 2/13/2015 10:49 AM, Chuck McPartlin wrote:
> AU Folk -
> "One of the biggest issues that I’ve seen with people wanting to get interested
> in astronomy (and specifically viewing) is the complexity of the equipment and
> ease of use."
> -I agree with Zak that ease of use is important. Smaller binos may be better
> from that standpoint, but I think that a small telescope that will allow
> planetary viewing is what really gets people excited. The public doesn't
> see binos as providing that.
> -I think we'll open ourselves up to all kinds of legal/permission problems
> if we try to take money from people at the Camino Real Marketplace. Free
> giveaway is my choice.
> -As a side note, these emails are getting a bit hefty with all the top-posting,
> which is bad netiquette.
> Chuck

On 2/13/2015 10:00 AM, Adrian Conrad wrote:
Adrian and I were discussing this and agree that most of the public won't tell the difference between a $100 and a $350 scope. We should go cheaper.

> On Feb 13, 2015 9:55 AM, "Robert C Richard" <starryrobert@aol.com> wrote:
>     I also agree that smaller, less expensive items would be a good way to go.
       
>     Hi Tom and all,
>     Tom I think you have great idea about going with the smaller scope. How about 1 StarBlast, 2 binoculars and the other goodies. Something like these would be good for astro and low cost http://www.binoculars.com/binoculars/astronomy-binoculars/celestronskymaster15x70centerfocus.cfm
>     Thats all for me folks,
>     Mike
>     On Feb 13, 2015, at 12:01 AM, President SBAU <president@sbau.org> wrote:
>     Krissie and all,
>     Nothing unsavory has gone on, just lack of return on prize investment, I think.  OK, I am now on the side of just get a raffle ticket and must be there to win, instead of having to judge anything--it does simplify life for the day.  [The Science Fair will be the place to judge projects for a big prize of $300 (RubenG pushed the SBAU higher than any other special prize, unless the Water Resources group raised theirs from $200).  I do not know if the Science Fair advertised our prize to the kids, but if they looked at previous years they would know we had a big Cash prize available.]
>       
>     And, since Chuck has said it has been a hassle to get the 8" Zhumell, maybe one StarBlast would be enough to draw attention (Orion 10015 StarBlast 4.5" Astro f/4 Reflector, Amazon: $205.99 + $9.95 shipping, 8 left in stock; or there is a little bigger Dobsonian: 10014).  Some folks have been in favor of a big prize to get attention for Astronomy Day, but I have not seen any extra attention paid to the SBAU for that.  And a nice telescope to win is a better draw than some of the things I see offered by large companies for taking their surveys!  It has been pointed out that we are down in our funds for the SBAU, so going for one small scope will save our cash (for pizza!, etc.).
>
>     Since we need to get things moving along, are there any substantial objections to going with one nice StarBlast?  Plus we can have a good number of our nice SBAU gifts available (just need to check stock w/ TimW).  Maybe the prize total costs can stay under $500, instead of closer to $900.  "And the crowd goes wild!" since we will be there with plenty of telescopes all day/night.
>     Thanks for your time on this,
>     TomT
>
>     On 2/12/2015 6:34 PM, Krissie Cook wrote:
>>     ...For the big scope, I think the "must be present to win" clause seems fair. But trying to ensure the winner will do what you want with what you give away seems fraught with complications....but I can help thinking that this discussion was precipitated by something unsavory from a past year. Out of curiosity, what would you estimate the ratio of ideal winners to non-ideal winners is?
>>     Krissie
>>     My guess would be hovering around 50/50. Hasta nebula - Chuck
>>     On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Chuck McPartlin <macpuzl@west.net> wrote:
>>
>>         Tom (et al ) -
>>         I'm with Jim and Jerry on this one. Must be present to win, or there's a
>>         whole can of worms to deal with. Also, I think we just do the raffle ticket,
>>         or else it's yet another level of hassle. People who take a ticket are
>>         interested in winning, and there's no way we can really judge their level
>>         of interest in astronomy by whatever they might write.
>>             I think more, smaller prizes is a good idea, as they potentially have a
>>         better cost/benefit ratio, and more people go home happy. The scope
>>         giveaway is a big draw, but I think pretty ephemeral, as we've seen.
>>             People with a real interest in astronomy have most likely already found us.
>>         Hasta nebula - Chuck
>>
AU Folk -"One of the biggest issues that I’ve seen with people wanting to get interested
in astronomy (and specifically viewing) is the complexity of the equipment and
ease of use."
I agree with Zak that ease of use is important. Smaller binos may be better
from that standpoint, but I think that a small telescope that will allow
planetary viewing is what really gets people excited. The public doesn't
see binos as providing that.
I think we'll open ourselves up to all kinds of legal/permission problems
if we try to take money from people at the Camino Real Marketplace. Free
giveaway is my choice.  Chuck

One of the biggest issues that I’ve seen with people wanting to get interested in astronomy (and specifically viewing) is the complexity of the equipment and ease of use. The average person isn’t going to want to lug around a 4 or 5 inch Dobsonian around. Binoculars, desktop scopes (like the Meade ETX series) or the best –in my opinion- scope would be the Edmund Scientific Astroscan.
The question we need to be asking ourselves is this:   Are we in it to attract people for numbers, or in it to actually teach/educate/inspire them to want to pursue astronomy as a hobby or career?
The big scope will attract a lot of attention, but will it be utilized?  It’s similar to the difference between getting a top of the line Ferrari or Bugatti, and getting a Mazda Miata; Yeah, you can have all the horsepower and torque and technology in the world, but if you don’t know how to/ are unable to utilize said power and technology, the guy in the early 90’s Miata is gonna have a lot more fun and even lap you at the track.   It’s no different here.
I like the idea of the smaller scopes, and maybe the “big” prize can be an equally small telescope that has Go To or something else. But ease of use is imperative.   I’ll get off my soap box now. J -Z

 Perhaps the idea of a small cost would also prevent several members of the same family to win multiple prizes? Javier Rivera

One idea that I want to float by is to make it a raffle instead of a drawing.  By charging a modest amount for the tickets, this would introduce some self-selection, i.e, only those who have some interest in astronomy would probably buy.  The proceeds could be used to help offset the cost of a nicer instrument with any surplus going into the treasury.  Maybe this idea has been discussed and rejected, but it seems to me it would solve a number of issues while still meeting our goals. And, the purchaser of the ticket would have to be present to receive he prize.  Since he/she has some skin in the game, hanging around is more likely.  It's all about incentives.  Bob R

 I tend to agree with Jim on the “reasons to win” list. It is no news that a certain amount of visitors to Astronomy Day just happen to be at the marketplace on that day and will pick up a ticket for the scope “because its free!”. In addition, I am quite sure that with the hope of winning a fancy telescope for free, many people will make up a reason on the fly such as “I love astrology” (?). I don’t think we will get an inspiring essay. With so many short, one sentence reasons, how will you choose a winner? Discrimination issues may arise.
I believe that in order to determine how to give away the scope, we should be asking several questions such as: what is the purpose of giving away the telescope? Is it a recourse to attract more public or for raising public awareness of astronomy? Do you want to give it to someone who already has an interest in astronomy? Or do you want to give it to someone whose interest may be sparked once he/she obtains a scope for free?
I am not implying that any of these questions has a right or wrong answer, I am simply saying that by knowing exactly why we do it, we can then focus on finding the best way to do it.
For example, the way we have been doing it so far, even though it is fair for all visitors, increases the chances of the scope going to someone with no interest in using it including many small children. But if they win, they will certainly spread the word about our event to friends and family. Javier Rivera

 My late to the party 20 rupee comment would be that, unless someone is going to just turn around and Craigslist the scope (and admits it), one good reason should be enough to enter (or a list is fine). I think "to resell" or "look through my neighbor's window (ie criminal intent)" sorts of reasons would be the only type that should disqualify. But I think we have to be careful about possible discrimination claims.
But I assume it's now NOT a drawing? That sounds really hard to judge. And there's bound to be near duplicates. Again- discrimination?
In the past we've always had a "be present to win" qualification. Tho we have lost a few entries, and even lesser prize winning tickets holders not being there, it wasn't that many I don't think. I wouldn't want the hassle of delivering a scope- there have been out of town folks enter before as well. I'm in favor of "Be Present T W". And it certainly shows interest. And if you can't be there, well so be it.    Cheers   Jim Williams

Jerry,
The reason I say "no need to be present" is that it allows more folks to enter without luckily being at the marketplace near 3pm.  Hopefully that will encourage early attendees w/ a serious itch for a telescope to not have the hassle of coming back after putting in an entry.  I would be happy to hold onto the scope for them.

and Robert Richard said:
"I need more clarification regarding having folks write down why they want to win, etc.  Would the drawing be limited to only those who are willing to submit the list (I assume so, since doing otherwise would negate what we're trying to accomplish)?  Then, if we find a list that seems inappropriate, do we disallow its entry?  How do we make fair judgments based on very limited knowledge?  I have assumed that only people that have some interest in astronomy would enter the drawing in the first place.  Anyway, these are some things to think about."
I think that you are right, the key is that folks who are willing to enter a list of reasons (limited to one small sheet!) to win the big telescope will have a real interest in astronomy, even if it is just to have one for their family, and I would be willing to subjectively judge the entries to pick the winner.  Maybe instead of a list, only allow one sentence to summarize why they want to win?

Thanks for the questions,
Tom Totton

    Sounds good, except I think they need to present to win.   Jerry


    On Feb 12, 2015, at 1:34 AM, President SBAU <president@sbau.org> wrote:

        ...Related to that, would you support having folks list why they want to win, and where they would use the 8" Zhumell Dobsonian telescope (separate entry & no need to be present), thereby making sure it goes to a deserving person?  We can discuss options next Planning Meeting.

 

Any other UCLA area places to visit?

On 1/18/2015 12:43 AM, Vice President wrote:
> Unfortunately it'll take quite some time to get from UCLA to Mt Wilson. They're not close to each other.  UCLA to Griffith observatory is a closer link.
> Jerry

> On Jan 18, 2015, at 12:41 AM, President SBAU <president@sbau.org> wrote:
>> Yes, a meteorite gallery would be cool with a docent explaining, but maybe have to supplement that with a visit to the Griffith Observatory as well to make it a day?  Or is there other astro related stuff right there at UCLA?  http://www.astro.ucla.edu/   Would it take a long time to get up to Mt. Wilson?

>> On 1/18/2015 12:21 AM, Vice President wrote:
>> That looks like a great trip! Especially with a docent. Jerry

>> On Jan 18, 2015, at 12:00 AM, Chuck McPartlin <macpuzl@west.net> wrote:
>> Tom / Jerry - AU member Dale Lowdermilk, our meteorite guy, is suggesting an AU field trip down to UCLA to their meteorite gallery, with a potential tour by Dr. Alan Rubin, the honcho, if he's there when we come. http://www.meteorites.ucla.edu/

see website for details

For your enjoyment, another way to see the SBAU Planning Meeting notes taken by TomT

If you have binoculars or better, look for Comet Lovejoy Q2 low in southern skies below and behind Orion; see: http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/observing-news/binocular-comet-lovejoy-heading-c2014-q2-lovejoy-1211142/ for more details on its path. 

Here is a pic, using 2min on my C8 iso100 Olympus E-3...not a great low light camera:

TimC
I thot it went well, a lot of questions that Chuck had to answer in 60 minutes, and he was sleep deprived, having done an asteroid occultation at 2am.  I tried to add some humor and poor Q&A if there was any dead space.  Baron was pretty good about keeping the questions flowing.

I recorded most of it in studio using my cell phone ("Smart Voice Recorder" app, 135MB--too big to attach), which worked pretty well, except for the guy on the boat, call-in questions, which was not heard in the studio except via the headphones.  I think the replay on KZSB http://morenews.newspress.com/kzsb/radio.html will be Saturday at 5pm if I am reading the program guide properly http://www.newspress.com/sbnp_radio/KZSB_PROGRAM_SCHEDULE.pdf .

See you  soon,
Tom T


On 12/10/2014 5:04 PM, Tim C wrote:
> Wouldn't you know, I was so scattered this morning, I missed the show. How did it go?
> T

Hi,
check out the photos taken at this session:
http://sbau.org/sbauforum/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;cat=12;u=6
Tom T