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[TomT]

Henk, I think you are right!  TomT

On 2/13/2015 10:20 AM, Henk Aling wrote:
> The location has an effect on whether you open yourself up to charlatans who sell their prize online the next day.  So, if it is held at the Camino Real plaza where anybody can enter and spend the time waiting eating pizza at Costco, sure give them crappy scopes and spend as little as possible.  If it is held at a quality place such as the SBMNH where people have to make an effort to go to so the likelihood of quality people and a quality event is higher then have a quality prize like the Z8.  I could not find where the event is held but I would  hope it is at the SBMNH.
>  Henk

Chuck, on top-posting,
I am used to keeping past posts below, with a little trimming of those headers & big signature lines and other wasted space.  For instance I have no idea of where the comment about "binos" or "money" came from without searching back thru closed emails, so keeping the previous emails complete as possible below helps me understand where your comments are aiming.  Text emails are not that big of a space waster, nowadays, with our enormous hard drives.  However, I do not think I can change you and you will not change my style either.  Carry on.

However, maybe this type of topic would be better for the Forum, where there is little repetition and comments just proceed down the page?  Next time we need to start there with any discussion.  SBAU members need to sign up now!  Look to the bottom of the forum for latest topic, and sign in to
TomT

On 2/13/2015 10:49 AM, Chuck McPartlin wrote:
> AU Folk -
> "One of the biggest issues that I’ve seen with people wanting to get interested
> in astronomy (and specifically viewing) is the complexity of the equipment and
> ease of use."
> -I agree with Zak that ease of use is important. Smaller binos may be better
> from that standpoint, but I think that a small telescope that will allow
> planetary viewing is what really gets people excited. The public doesn't
> see binos as providing that.
> -I think we'll open ourselves up to all kinds of legal/permission problems
> if we try to take money from people at the Camino Real Marketplace. Free
> giveaway is my choice.
> -As a side note, these emails are getting a bit hefty with all the top-posting,
> which is bad netiquette.
> Chuck

On 2/13/2015 10:00 AM, Adrian Conrad wrote:
Adrian and I were discussing this and agree that most of the public won't tell the difference between a $100 and a $350 scope. We should go cheaper.

> On Feb 13, 2015 9:55 AM, "Robert C Richard" <starryrobert@aol.com> wrote:
>     I also agree that smaller, less expensive items would be a good way to go.
       
>     Hi Tom and all,
>     Tom I think you have great idea about going with the smaller scope. How about 1 StarBlast, 2 binoculars and the other goodies. Something like these would be good for astro and low cost http://www.binoculars.com/binoculars/astronomy-binoculars/celestronskymaster15x70centerfocus.cfm
>     Thats all for me folks,
>     Mike
>     On Feb 13, 2015, at 12:01 AM, President SBAU <president@sbau.org> wrote:
>     Krissie and all,
>     Nothing unsavory has gone on, just lack of return on prize investment, I think.  OK, I am now on the side of just get a raffle ticket and must be there to win, instead of having to judge anything--it does simplify life for the day.  [The Science Fair will be the place to judge projects for a big prize of $300 (RubenG pushed the SBAU higher than any other special prize, unless the Water Resources group raised theirs from $200).  I do not know if the Science Fair advertised our prize to the kids, but if they looked at previous years they would know we had a big Cash prize available.]
>       
>     And, since Chuck has said it has been a hassle to get the 8" Zhumell, maybe one StarBlast would be enough to draw attention (Orion 10015 StarBlast 4.5" Astro f/4 Reflector, Amazon: $205.99 + $9.95 shipping, 8 left in stock; or there is a little bigger Dobsonian: 10014).  Some folks have been in favor of a big prize to get attention for Astronomy Day, but I have not seen any extra attention paid to the SBAU for that.  And a nice telescope to win is a better draw than some of the things I see offered by large companies for taking their surveys!  It has been pointed out that we are down in our funds for the SBAU, so going for one small scope will save our cash (for pizza!, etc.).
>
>     Since we need to get things moving along, are there any substantial objections to going with one nice StarBlast?  Plus we can have a good number of our nice SBAU gifts available (just need to check stock w/ TimW).  Maybe the prize total costs can stay under $500, instead of closer to $900.  "And the crowd goes wild!" since we will be there with plenty of telescopes all day/night.
>     Thanks for your time on this,
>     TomT
>
>     On 2/12/2015 6:34 PM, Krissie Cook wrote:
>>     ...For the big scope, I think the "must be present to win" clause seems fair. But trying to ensure the winner will do what you want with what you give away seems fraught with complications....but I can help thinking that this discussion was precipitated by something unsavory from a past year. Out of curiosity, what would you estimate the ratio of ideal winners to non-ideal winners is?
>>     Krissie
>>     My guess would be hovering around 50/50. Hasta nebula - Chuck
>>     On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Chuck McPartlin <macpuzl@west.net> wrote:
>>
>>         Tom (et al ) -
>>         I'm with Jim and Jerry on this one. Must be present to win, or there's a
>>         whole can of worms to deal with. Also, I think we just do the raffle ticket,
>>         or else it's yet another level of hassle. People who take a ticket are
>>         interested in winning, and there's no way we can really judge their level
>>         of interest in astronomy by whatever they might write.
>>             I think more, smaller prizes is a good idea, as they potentially have a
>>         better cost/benefit ratio, and more people go home happy. The scope
>>         giveaway is a big draw, but I think pretty ephemeral, as we've seen.
>>             People with a real interest in astronomy have most likely already found us.
>>         Hasta nebula - Chuck
>>
AU Folk -"One of the biggest issues that I’ve seen with people wanting to get interested
in astronomy (and specifically viewing) is the complexity of the equipment and
ease of use."
I agree with Zak that ease of use is important. Smaller binos may be better
from that standpoint, but I think that a small telescope that will allow
planetary viewing is what really gets people excited. The public doesn't
see binos as providing that.
I think we'll open ourselves up to all kinds of legal/permission problems
if we try to take money from people at the Camino Real Marketplace. Free
giveaway is my choice.  Chuck

One of the biggest issues that I’ve seen with people wanting to get interested in astronomy (and specifically viewing) is the complexity of the equipment and ease of use. The average person isn’t going to want to lug around a 4 or 5 inch Dobsonian around. Binoculars, desktop scopes (like the Meade ETX series) or the best –in my opinion- scope would be the Edmund Scientific Astroscan.
The question we need to be asking ourselves is this:   Are we in it to attract people for numbers, or in it to actually teach/educate/inspire them to want to pursue astronomy as a hobby or career?
The big scope will attract a lot of attention, but will it be utilized?  It’s similar to the difference between getting a top of the line Ferrari or Bugatti, and getting a Mazda Miata; Yeah, you can have all the horsepower and torque and technology in the world, but if you don’t know how to/ are unable to utilize said power and technology, the guy in the early 90’s Miata is gonna have a lot more fun and even lap you at the track.   It’s no different here.
I like the idea of the smaller scopes, and maybe the “big” prize can be an equally small telescope that has Go To or something else. But ease of use is imperative.   I’ll get off my soap box now. J -Z

 Perhaps the idea of a small cost would also prevent several members of the same family to win multiple prizes? Javier Rivera

One idea that I want to float by is to make it a raffle instead of a drawing.  By charging a modest amount for the tickets, this would introduce some self-selection, i.e, only those who have some interest in astronomy would probably buy.  The proceeds could be used to help offset the cost of a nicer instrument with any surplus going into the treasury.  Maybe this idea has been discussed and rejected, but it seems to me it would solve a number of issues while still meeting our goals. And, the purchaser of the ticket would have to be present to receive he prize.  Since he/she has some skin in the game, hanging around is more likely.  It's all about incentives.  Bob R

 I tend to agree with Jim on the “reasons to win” list. It is no news that a certain amount of visitors to Astronomy Day just happen to be at the marketplace on that day and will pick up a ticket for the scope “because its free!”. In addition, I am quite sure that with the hope of winning a fancy telescope for free, many people will make up a reason on the fly such as “I love astrology” (?). I don’t think we will get an inspiring essay. With so many short, one sentence reasons, how will you choose a winner? Discrimination issues may arise.
I believe that in order to determine how to give away the scope, we should be asking several questions such as: what is the purpose of giving away the telescope? Is it a recourse to attract more public or for raising public awareness of astronomy? Do you want to give it to someone who already has an interest in astronomy? Or do you want to give it to someone whose interest may be sparked once he/she obtains a scope for free?
I am not implying that any of these questions has a right or wrong answer, I am simply saying that by knowing exactly why we do it, we can then focus on finding the best way to do it.
For example, the way we have been doing it so far, even though it is fair for all visitors, increases the chances of the scope going to someone with no interest in using it including many small children. But if they win, they will certainly spread the word about our event to friends and family. Javier Rivera

 My late to the party 20 rupee comment would be that, unless someone is going to just turn around and Craigslist the scope (and admits it), one good reason should be enough to enter (or a list is fine). I think "to resell" or "look through my neighbor's window (ie criminal intent)" sorts of reasons would be the only type that should disqualify. But I think we have to be careful about possible discrimination claims.
But I assume it's now NOT a drawing? That sounds really hard to judge. And there's bound to be near duplicates. Again- discrimination?
In the past we've always had a "be present to win" qualification. Tho we have lost a few entries, and even lesser prize winning tickets holders not being there, it wasn't that many I don't think. I wouldn't want the hassle of delivering a scope- there have been out of town folks enter before as well. I'm in favor of "Be Present T W". And it certainly shows interest. And if you can't be there, well so be it.    Cheers   Jim Williams

Jerry,
The reason I say "no need to be present" is that it allows more folks to enter without luckily being at the marketplace near 3pm.  Hopefully that will encourage early attendees w/ a serious itch for a telescope to not have the hassle of coming back after putting in an entry.  I would be happy to hold onto the scope for them.

and Robert Richard said:
"I need more clarification regarding having folks write down why they want to win, etc.  Would the drawing be limited to only those who are willing to submit the list (I assume so, since doing otherwise would negate what we're trying to accomplish)?  Then, if we find a list that seems inappropriate, do we disallow its entry?  How do we make fair judgments based on very limited knowledge?  I have assumed that only people that have some interest in astronomy would enter the drawing in the first place.  Anyway, these are some things to think about."
I think that you are right, the key is that folks who are willing to enter a list of reasons (limited to one small sheet!) to win the big telescope will have a real interest in astronomy, even if it is just to have one for their family, and I would be willing to subjectively judge the entries to pick the winner.  Maybe instead of a list, only allow one sentence to summarize why they want to win?

Thanks for the questions,
Tom Totton

    Sounds good, except I think they need to present to win.   Jerry


    On Feb 12, 2015, at 1:34 AM, President SBAU <president@sbau.org> wrote:

        ...Related to that, would you support having folks list why they want to win, and where they would use the 8" Zhumell Dobsonian telescope (separate entry & no need to be present), thereby making sure it goes to a deserving person?  We can discuss options next Planning Meeting.